Existential Questions

[Dhanesvara]

I received an email from Fritz [last name withheld] some time back with many comments and questions, and thought I would ‘seed’ the forum discussion with them. It is rare to get such and in-depth response from a reader.

The first thing to note is that I write from the perspective of the Vedic worldview, and specifically the Bhagavad-gita. The Gita offers a concise body of knowledge that addresses many of the questions you raise. Therefore my writing, and my answers to you here, are not simply my opinion. Rather I am answering based on the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita, and more specifically, those of my spiritual master His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, as I have learned from him.

Fritz, you say: p.23. What is the soul? Are there billions or trillions of souls wandering from one material body to the next? Or is there all-one soul?

Sri Krishna explains in the Bhagavad-gita that the living beings in this material world are His eternal fragmented parts and parcels.

1. “This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.” 2.24
2. “The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.” Bg. 15.7

This means that all of the souls are eternally individual and separate. There is some conception that there is only one soul and we are individual expressions of that one soul. But that view is not supported in the Bhagavad-gita, nor anywhere else in the Vedic literature.  I am not you and you are not me, and this will always be the case.  We are individual expressions of the unlimited uniqueness of God. We are God-like but we are not God. God is always God and does not have to become God. Since we undoubtedly do not have the potency of God, we can understand that we do not, and cannot become God. But we can realize our God-like nature, and that is called self-realization.

And yes, the unlimited number of souls in this world are going through the process of samsara, or reincarnation, for countless of births, until we finally surrender to Krishna, at which time we can attain the spiritual world and become free from further birth and death.  We learn from the Bhagavad-gita:

1. As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones. 2.22
2. One who has taken his birth is sure to die, and after death one is sure to take birth again. 2.27
3. After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. 7.19
4. From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunté, never takes birth again. 8.16

You Say: p.23. What is death? When a physical body dies, it is the material and individual ego that vanishes, the material body transforms, becomes again part of the all-material (earth, water, fire, ash, air is one). The being returns to the eternal bond of the all-one. In fact, it never left the all-one, but it developed a  consciousness of being an individual. In dying this individual-consciousness vanishes.

The Gita explains that all living beings in this material world wear two bodies—one gross body made of the physical/chemical elements, and another subtle body that is comprised of mind, intelligence and ahankara, or false ego.  At the time of death the subtle body carrying the soul, separates from the gross body. The physical body is then said to be dead. But the individual soul remains conscious in the subtle body. The memory of his past life goes with him and this indicates that the memory is not a function of the brain as material scientists think.

There are many books that explain the death experience with testimonials of people who have experienced clinical death, but were conscious of seeing their body before them. These are called near-death experiences.

The soul, living being, is then existing in the mental realm and whatever one thinks of at that time, or according to his/her consciousness, they manifest a place which may be heavenly or hellish. After some time in this interim state the soul again takes another material body to continue their spiritual evolution. For more details about this I recommend you read the book “Changing Bodies.”

Next question: What is our real self-interest? Every being produces its own and unique reality. Being in all-one our interest is bliss. Our self-interest is to enjoy oneself and to enjoy any life and to enjoy the comfort in the all-one.

Based on the nature of your first questions regarding the soul you apparently have some concept of “impersonalism.” In the Vedic literature this is referred to as the concept of brahman, which is one feature of the absolute truth. The feature of brahman however, is considered subordinate to the personal feature of the absolute truth.

All of us have an impersonal feature. For example, we may write a letter to someone. The letter has come from us and is an expression of us, but it is not us completely.

There are yogis who aspire to achieve this brahman, described as a “white light” of incomparable bliss, in which all designations are lost, and everything is in total unity and harmony. And compared to this material realm the joy experienced there is beyond comprehension. It is however subordinate to, and an inferior expression of the absolute truth. The highest expression is the personal form of God, who is described as being Krishna.

In the Bhagavad-gita Arjuna asks this question of Krishna:

Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.

But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable—the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth—by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me. For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.  But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Påthä—for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death. Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt.  (Bhagavad-gita 12.1-8)

There is a great deal written about the impersonal realization, and it can be attractive in that there is none of the things there that cause us so much suffering here. Due to our conditioned experience in this life we become afraid of a personal spiritual identity and thus naturally are attracted to an impersonal existence. But the happy positive personal experience is always superior to the impersonal, and that happy positive experience can be found in relationship to the Supreme, particularly in the topmost place in all of creation—Goloka Vrindavana—as a personal associate of the Supreme Lord Himself.

Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We need not negate personality in order to find happiness. We must understand that the problems we experience are not due to having personality, but are due to our present material condition that is antithetical to our spiritual nature.

This is a very detailed science and it is explained completely in the works of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Now on to your question…

Yes, in this material world we may pursue our individual self-interest in relationship to the things of this world, and we think of those things as our self-interest, but these so-called interests are all related to the body and must be left behind at the time of death.

Our real self-interest is to know our actual spiritual nature, which is as an individual soul whose nature is sat, cit, ananda, or a condition of eternal life of bliss and knowledge. Everyone is actually searching for such conditions in this material world but they must be frustrated because these conditions don’t exist here. Everyone wants to be happy, nobody wants to die, and we all struggle to acquire knowledge. But in the spiritual world all of those are a concomitant factor of our nature. More than that, when we achieve the spiritual planets we can there have an eternal relationship with the most wonderful person of all—God—and in that relationship we can find our ultimate and supreme happiness. In relationship with Him we find our ultimate interest and our ultimate happiness.

Next question: p.24/25: It is not sinful having the will or desire to become god – it is only not-knowing, illusion. We need no desire or will to become god, because we are already in god, the all-one. Happiness is not about being free of suffering. And suffering is not bound to the material body.  Living in the material world can lead to forgetfulness about the spiritual world. It is a matter of thinking, feeling, trusting, that the matter and energy is one, material and spiritual world is one. The separation is a human conception trying to make things easier understandable. In fact, life is easy and complicated – it is a matter of how and what do we look at. Living in the material world is meant to stay in peacefulness.
      Our reality is one possibility of many. True reality (Wirklichkeit) is an ocean which includes our individual projections. We may focus our being onto the all-truth and every little truth in so many little every-day things, or we may focus onto the selfish illusion of the shadows on the ocean’s surface neglecting the depths of unique truth.

This is a comment and not a question, and the nature of this comment is addressed in my previous answer. Your statements here are all contrary to what is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Let me take them one at a time:

You say: We need no desire or will to become god, because we are already in god, the all-one.

How are we in God? That you do not know. We have the same spiritual quality but we are minute parts and parcels of God. In our present condition we have lost our connection with Him and that is why we remain unfulfilled.

You say: Happiness is not about being free of suffering. And suffering is not bound to the material body.

Please honestly admit that your experience in this world is not all bliss. And please admit that if a person is suffering that it is not possible in such circumstances to be happy. To think otherwise is ridiculous on its face. No reasonable person is going to agree to such a statement. Go to the hospital and ask those suffering there is they are happy. They are not happy to be in a diseased condition. They want to heal and get out of the hospital. Similarly, this material world is a hospital for those who are spiritually diseased.

Further, suffering is a concomitant experience with the material body, beginning with birth and continuing through death. The proofs of that are the many pharmacies and psychiatrists. This body means suffering. In between if we are temporarily free from suffering we may think ourselves happy, but that is only a temporary condition. You may be young and healthy, but that is a temporary condition. Everyone in this material world must suffer. Please be honest and admit that.

You say:Living in the material world can lead to forgetfulness about the spiritual world.

Not can, it does.  Who here can remember the spiritual world? Only those who endeavor to reestablish their relationship with God through the yoga process.

You say: It is a matter of thinking, feeling, trusting, that the matter and energy is one, material and spiritual world is one.

The material and spiritual energies are all God’s energies. They are one only to Him. To all of us they are not one and can never be one.

Sri Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita: “Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies. Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature. All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution. There is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.” (Bhagavad-gita 8.4-7)

And further:

“This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” Bg. 7.14

And

“This material nature, which is one of My energies, is working under My direction, O son of Kunté, producing all moving and nonmoving beings. Under its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.”  Bg. 9.10

You want to make everything all one, but this cannot be. If it is all one, then I challenge you to live this idea. Draw all of your money out of “your” bank account and send it to me. After all, we are all one, so let me hold the money. Your philosophy fails immediately.

If you insist on thinking that it is all one, please hear from the words of Sri Krishna:

“Know that all states of being are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.” Bg. 7.12

In its oneness it is all God, but there are distinctions. We can never become God. We must always remain subordinate to Him and under His control. He has put us in our body and He controls it according to our karmic destiny. We have very limited free will.

You say: The separation is a human conception trying to make things easier understandable. In fact, life is easy and complicated – it is a matter of how and what do we look at.

No, separation is the way things are as explained by the Supreme Lord Himself and as we have quoted Him above.

You say: Living in the material world is meant to stay in peacefulness.

In our materially conditioned state we have no understanding of what actual peace is. Let us humbly learn about peace from Sri Krishna’s multiple instructions:

One who is not in transcendental consciousness can have neither a controlled mind nor steady intelligence, without which there is no possibility of peace. And how can there be any happiness without peace? Bg. 2.66

A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires—that enter like rivers into the ocean which is ever being filled but is always still—can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires.  A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego—he alone can attain real peace. 2.70-71

A faithful man who is absorbed in transcendental knowledge and who subdues his senses quickly attains the supreme spiritual peace. 4.39

The steadily devoted soul attains unadulterated peace because he offers the result of all activities to Me; whereas a person who is not in union with the Divine, who is greedy for the fruits of his labor, becomes entangled.  5.12

The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries. 5.29

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.  O scion of Bharata, surrender unto Him utterly. By His grace you will attain transcendental peace and the supreme and eternal abode. 18.61-62

The simple fact is that we are not God and we can never become God. When however, we want to usurp the position of God as being the enjoyer of anything we are put into this material world where we can imagine ourselves to be the enjoyer. However, in this condition our so-called enjoyment is mixed with suffering. The Vedas call this sukha/dukha, happiness/distress that are two sides of the same coin. We cannot have material happiness without having distress. It is impossible. In order to become free from this temporary material condition we must surrender to God, and accept His position as master and our position as His servants. This is simply the nature of reality. To try to have any other position is simply illusion, and everyone in this material world is suffering from so many such illusions.

Once again, our book is titled: “Lessons in Spiritual Economics from the Bhagavad-gita”

This book is not based on our mental speculation, nor a fanciful creation of our fertile brain. All of our statements are based on and supported by the Bhagavad-gita, which we accept as a higher authority for knowledge and wisdom.

You say: p. 22 Are we sure, that animals only seek to eat, mate, defend and sleep?

The Vedas explain that the innumerable jivas, living beings, living in the material world are here for predominantly one purpose—to experience the material energies in all of its manifold forms. Living beings other than human have unique bodies with which they can experience sense activities in ways that humans cannot—birds and fish are two easy examples. The animals go through a process of spiritual evolution, or changing bodies from one form to the next, all through 8,000,000 species and then through various human species. Species in this context means a body that allows a particular consciousness.

The human form of life is considered higher than the animals because human beings are given free will with which to make a choice from various options. Animals however, are forced to act according to their nature. Thus where we see that a cat behaves the same way all over the world, people behave in a great many different ways. If we analyze the behavior of animals we find that they are busy with primarily these four propensities—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They appear to have some social life as well, but the primary activities are basically those four.

The Vedas therefore challenge us that we should not live like animals engaging ourselves only in eating, sleeping, mating and defending. With human life we are given higher intelligence and the best use of our free will is to inquire about the nature of life, why we are here, what the purpose of life is, etc. Without such inquiry and search for the truth, human life is nothing more than polished animal life.

• This topic was modified 11 years, 5 months ago by Dhanesvara.

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